安妮海瑟薇碰见偶像（安妮海瑟薇对话）

- There was a moment where I sort of just gave up where I was like, "oh, I give up, I can't do this." - And you're on such an amazing team on that show. That's right, that's all possible because the other actors.

有那么一瞬间，我有点要放弃了，我想，“哦，我放弃了，我做不到。”你那部剧的团队都太棒了。- 是的，是的，确实，没错。- 因为…… - 是的，就是……

I mean, it's sort of like, I think you worked on "Rachel Getting Married." - Yeah.

对，这都有可能，因为其他演员。- 因为他们就在那里，摄像机就在眼前。- 因为摄像师的机位变化无常。我是说，这有点像，我想是你在《蕾切尔的婚礼》中的表演。

- Radical listening.

是的。- 你们拍的都是 90 分钟左右的镜头，对吗？听上去很极端了。

- Yeah, yeah, that's kind of the way we work on this show always, but it's a dream.

是啊，是啊，这部剧我们一直都是这么拍的，但它如梦一般美妙。嗨，杰瑞米。- 嘿。

- Hi, Jeremy.

抱歉，如果你是在家里、手机上、地铁上或任何地方观看这个视频，我们应该用全名称呼对方和所有演员。你好，杰瑞米·斯特朗。- 嘿，安妮·海瑟薇。- 很高兴见到你。- 很高兴见到你。

- Sorry, in case you're watching this at home or on your phone, on the subway or any place, we're meant to call each other and all actors by full names.

我在想，我们彼此认识，我们一起合作过两次，但我们从来没有坐下来谈论过工作或表演。- 我知道，每次我们聊的时候，房间里都放了很多其他家具。是的，为了准备这次对话，我回去看了你的很多作品。

So hello, Jeremy Strong.

哦，我只是在想象你看《公主日记》的画面。我没有重新看《公主日记》。

I was thinking, we know each other and we've worked together twice, but we've never sat down and talked about work or talked about acting.

重新观看，你人真好。但是我很荣幸能和你有这次对话。

- Right, preparing for this I went back and watched a lot of your body of work.

我想我们都觉得忠诚和勇气是值得追求的美德。我觉得我看了你的作品，被你作品的题材多样化震撼到了，还有你的勇气和投入。

- Oh, I'm just trying to imagine you watching "The Princess Diaries." - I didn't re-watch "The Princess Diaries." - Re-watch, you are good.

谢谢你，我有点说不出话来，但随着我们友谊的加深，我注意到的事情是，这也是我很感激认识你的原因之一，我非常感激我们是朋友。不用谈论创作过程的感觉可真好，因为它会感觉非常私人化，只要知道你用你的整个灵魂去表演，用你所拥有的一切去表演。

- But I'm so honored to be doing this with you.

和你一起度过了很长一段时间，我知道你有多聪明，你能像我们的搭档安东尼·霍普金斯（“汉尼拔大叔”）一样，毫不费力地回忆起名言和诗句。我只是觉得这一刻太激动人心了，因为我是说，你真的就是这样的人。

I think we both feel the virtues of commitment and courage are ones to be aspired to.

你真的是我们最棒最伟大的演员之一。我想我的第一个问题是，因为我认为会有很多演员看到这个视频，他们会想知道，在你做演员的那些年里，你都告诉自己什么？

And I feel like I see your work and am just blown away by the versatility of it, but also the courageousness and the investment.

感觉就像你在经历这场美丽的宇宙大爆炸之前迈出了更小的一步？这是个非常好的问题，也是核心问题，对吗？

- Thank you, I'm a little speechless, but the thing that I've noticed as our friendship has deepened, and one of the reasons why I'm so grateful to know you, and also I'm so grateful that we're pals.

尽管缺乏证据表明，不过，是什么让我们能够一直有机会做我们想做的工作？我真的不知道答案，我想这只是一种需要，做这件事的需要，以及那种这是值得你奉献一生的事情的感觉，你知道吗？

It's so wonderful without having to talk about the creative process because it can feel very intimate, to just know that you do it with your whole soul, that you do it with everything that you have.

我不知道你是怎么想的，但我一直对演员所做的事充满敬畏，对其他演员充满敬畏。我是说，我很敬畏你在《初创玩家》里扮演的丽贝卡。

And having gotten to spend a lot of time with you, I know how extraordinary your brain is and the way that you are able to like our co-star, Anthony Hopkins, recall quotes and verse seemingly effortlessly.

没什么好改进的，达米恩，我们有 600 个粉丝，好吗？不，我们需要想得更宏大，我们需要接触到更广泛的受众。

And I just think it's so exciting this moment, because I mean, it's really happening for you.

那种为了一份感动我的工作去做出贡献的强烈愿望。我不知道这是不是假的，你是否真的是《穿普拉达的女王》选角的第九顺位，但就像去拍卖行实习一样，第九选择的感觉，不管是不是这样，那种感觉都是很有力的推动引擎。

Like you're really being revealed as one of our great, great actors.

我读过你说过一些关于薇薇安·李的事情，说她如何爬过碎玻璃（越过艰难）。是的。- 因为她想……因为安妮会这么说她，如果她认为这对她的表演或场景有帮助的话。

And I guess my first question is because I think there's gonna be a lot of actors watching this and they're gonna wanna know, what did you tell yourself during those years when you were building it?

所以我觉得，作为人，作为演员，我们每个人都有这样的特质，这个角色、这部剧是一份礼物，它就像我一直想爬的山。我们当时一起拍摄，你是那时发现你被选上了出演，还是你之前就已经被选上了？

And it felt like you were taking smaller steps before you've had this beautiful cosmic explosion?

哦，《惊涛迷局》吗？是的。- 我想我已经拍过试播集了，我觉得我知道我们会拍这个戏。

- It's such a great question, it's sort of the central question, right?

你以身临其境的投入角色而很有名。我记得我们在美丽的毛里求斯岛时看到你，看着你在那散步，非常投入地沉浸在角色中，情绪像波浪一样起伏。

What keeps us going sort of, despite any lack of evidence that we'll have the chances to do the work that we want to do?

我记得有一次我悄悄地走到你面前说，“听我说，我完全尊重你的工作，但我也想做个正常人。所以我会让你做你自己，我会点头，如果你只是想说话或做任何事情，我会敞开心扉，”你只是点头，因为你深深地沉浸在你的角色中。

I don't know the answer really, I think it was just the need, the need to do this and the feeling that it's something worth devoting one's life to, you know?

几周后，我只记得你突然出现在我身边，你说：“我想我需要出来透透气。”我说，“想来我家吃饭吗？”你说，“好啊。”

I don't know about you, but I'm constantly in awe of what actors do, of other actors.

太棒了。- 你过来吃晚饭，我们一起聊得很开心。你，我，亚当，我们的儿子都睡着了，我们聊生活，一起度过时光，你还记得那晚我们喝了什么不。

I mean, I was in awe of what you did in "We Crashed" as Rebecca.

哦，记得，我们喝了蓝便士朗姆酒。- 就是它，喝了很多。是很多。- 喝了很多蓝便士朗姆酒，你还跟我聊了《继承之战》。

- There's nothing to revamp, Damien, we have 600 followers, okay?

我尽力了，但我以为我能改变一些事情，但我没能改变，有些事情你能做到，可我做不到。我是这部剧的超级粉丝，我是你作品的超级粉丝，我还是有点生气，因为你没有像我鼓励你那样组织你的艾美奖获奖感言。

No, we need to think bigger, we need to reach a wider audience.

但我认为世界可以利用那一刻，不过，也许会有更多的机会。这部剧表面上讲的是一件事，但实际上是关于（父亲对孩子情绪）虐待的延续。

- The great desire to make a contribution to the work that has moved me.

是的。- 首先，当你不知道接下来会发生什么时，你如何在多季剧集中演绎一个角色？你只是让自己毫无计划地直接表演吗？

And I don't know if it was apocryphal if you really were the ninth choice, for "Devil Wears Prada," but like going and interning in an auction house and that ninth choice feeling, whether or not it is the case, it's a great engine, that feeling.

你经历了很多困难吗？比如，你是如何做到的？

I read you say something once about Vivian Lee and how she would crawl over broken glass.

现在你已经演了三季了。是的。- 你是如何揣摩表演的？

- Yes.

说实话，我不想把太多的优秀表演结果归到这上面，我认为表演并不是单一的大整体，你知道吗？谢谢，谢谢，是的。- 每一个场景或每一个时刻，都经历了一千次不完美的尝试，我个人总是觉得自己处于不确定和困惑的边缘。

So I feel like each of us have that trait as people, as actors, this character, this show is such a gift, it's like the mountain I've always wanted to climb.

从那个地方开始尝试，根据你的直觉来描绘角色，我觉得很幸运能和这些素材一起工作，杰西·阿姆斯特朗和编剧们都很聪明，他们对精神病学、对人的内心有着极其敏锐的法医理解。所以很多针都是为你穿的，就好像非常强大的磁铁一样，只是从你身上提取出它需要的东西。

- We were shooting together, when you found out that you'd gotten cast or had you gotten cast just before?

而你，你知道，这是最难的部分，你必须让自己能够投入其中，并成为角色的容器。所以我觉得我已经在这些分类的激流中航行了几季剧集，我喜欢这种感觉。

- Oh, right on "Serenity?" - Yeah.

它很沉重，它的重量很沉重，只是尽量满足角色的要求，尝试体现角色的挣扎，对我来说，在最后一季，有很多想象的金光。对肯德尔来说，这是一种需要感，在最后一季中，这种近乎狂躁的需要感凌驾于痛苦之上。

- You are known for your immersive process.

是的。- 剧本极其精彩，台词极其优秀，我整个人破碎得七零八落。对我来说，我的全部工作就是争取说这些话的权利。

And I remember going like kind of seeing you while we were in the beautiful island of Mauritius, like kind of just walking around so deep in character and kind of wave.

好了，我们……- 真他妈孤独。嘿。

And I remember one time kind of sidling up to you and saying, "listen, I completely respect what you're doing, but I also wanna like be a human.

我完全崩溃了。这是关于精神虐待的延续。

So I'm gonna let you do you, I'm gonna nod and just know wide open if you ever just wanna talk or do anything," and you just kind of nodded because you were deep in your character.

我记得杰西和亚当·麦凯，他们跟我聊的第一件事就是温特伯格的电影《家宴》，这部电影是我们这部剧的基础，其中的创伤和虐待。但同时……我们所拍的主题，电影《家宴》和我们这部剧都与后期资本主义有关。

And then a few weeks later, I just remember you just kind of appearing next to me and you said, "I think I need to come up for air." And I said, "wanna come over for dinner?" and you said, "yes, please." - That was great.

我们生活在这个时代，我记得我在哪里读到过，最富有的三个美国人比 1.6 亿最贫穷的同胞更有钱。所以我们扮演的这些人就生活在那个稀有的世界里，所以领域上其实非常相似。

You, me, Adam, our son was asleep and we talked about life and we spent time together, and you remembered what we drank that night.

我觉得，看着你的表演，对我来说，这就是你所能做到的完美表现，那就是好像能非常精确地从高台跳水开始做三个后空翻，然后过一会儿，就有很完整的深海跳水，然后触底。所以对我来说，当你表演这样的场景，很令人惊叹，围绕奥卡金链子的设计，一条金链子，还有你开始用俄罗斯口音讲台词。

- Oh yeah, we drank Penny Blue rum.

但之后在楼梯上的那一刻，非常精彩。我认为作为一名演员，我与开始时最主要的不同之处在于，我学会了如何摆脱糟糕的拍摄结果。

- A lot of it. - I tried, but I, I thought that I could change things, but I'm not as, there's things you're able to do that I can't.

作为一名演员，我的整个存在不再由一场好戏或者一场坏戏来定义。- 是的。我已经适应了，好吧，这拍得很糟糕，让我们看看，让我们从中学到一些东西，试着找到其他的东西。

- I'm you know a huge fan of the show and you know I'm a huge fan of your work and I'm still a little annoyed that you did not wrap your Emmy's acceptance speech as I encouraged you to.

就我个人而言，允许自己搞砸，就像允许…… - 做出很大的错误选择……勇敢地经历失败，找到那个恰好得当的表演状态是作为一名演员你能给自己的最好的东西。

But I think the world could have used that moment, but, you know, maybe there will be more opportunities.

我认为你所说的那种精确度在很大程度上与我所在的团队有关，也与我能够做出高度具体的选择有关，因为每个人都很优秀。对。- 真的，而你所说的那个特定时刻，它有一段历史。因此……

But it's a show that is seemingly about one thing, but it's actually a show about the legacy of abuse.

故事要从一个悲伤的地方开始说起，所以大家……但我的第一份工作是拍一部叫《爱的初体验》的电视剧。那是我高三的时候，我远离家乡，在洛杉矶拍摄，我只是在整理很多我没有经历过的感觉…… - 你当时多大？

- Yeah.

开始准备的时候我 16 岁，我们正式拍的时候我 17 岁。当时我有很多感觉，但我并没有真正理解。

Do you just kind of throw yourself against the wall?

每天早上我都会化妆，这感觉非常非常奇怪，因为我当时非常年轻，化妆会改变我的面容，看着感觉非常奇怪。我会进到我的小车里，埃里克·克里斯蒂安·奥尔森在一边，杰西·艾森伯格在另一边。

Do you crawl across broken glass?

我去片场的时候会非常紧张，我会开始哭，不过我知道我不能把妆哭花。所以我会拿一张纸巾，把它对折，然后对着纸巾哭。

Like how does it?

我只记得当时对自己说，这个画面要是能拍出来会很好。我有几次尝试把那一刻拍进电影里，但从来没有……当我提出建议的时候，每个人都看着我，好像我有三个脑袋一样。

Now that you've done it three times.

这就是我说我被邀请参与这个过程的意思，我向德鲁和李描述了这个过程，我不知道他们是否完全明白我在说什么，但他们信任我。所以我说，"我希望我们能以这样的方式拍摄，只要有面对外界的部分。"

- Yeah.

因为这些当然是玻璃墙的办公室，而且是开放式的平面图，开放式的隔间，所有这些布置，她必须有一张公众面孔，她转过身来，她必须在哭的时候不能哭花她的妆，我想很多女性都能懂这一点。我只是有一种感觉，看着眼泪浸透纸巾，而不是流下来，在镜头前看起来会很强烈。- 是的，我是说，这个时刻很令人惊叹。

- Honestly, I don't wanna ascribe too much, sort of ownership over that, I think performance is not a monolith, you know?

很好，我很高兴。- 令人惊讶的是，你说哭就能哭出来，真是太神奇了。什么意思？

- Thank you, thank you, yes.

你可以让眼泪那样流出来，我认为这是一种天赋。- 我是个爱哭鬼？- 这是天赋。我是个爱哭鬼，所以很精彩吗。- 没有。你知道吗？当我们在毛里求斯拍摄史蒂夫·奈特的电影时，我刚刚开始拍摄这部电影，我读到一些真正打动了我的东西，这成为了我一直在思考的事情。

And from that place making attempts at, you know based on your intuition in terms of charting it, I feel very fortunate to be working with material, these right Jesse Armstrong and the writers are so brilliant and have such a sort of incisive forensic understanding of psychiatry, of sort of interiority.

我试着把这种感觉投入到《继承之战》的拍摄中，我想我现在试着把它投入到所有事情中，杨说过，只有真正的我们自己才有治愈的力量，所以也许那一刻来自你本身的存在基础，这就是为什么它如此深刻…… - 是啊。这很有趣，因为我记得我年轻的时候，一个演员说，“你只能真正地扮演你自己。”

So a lot of that needle is threaded for you and like very powerful magnets just sort of pulls out of you what it needs to.

我想，我不知道我是否完全同意，我是说，无论什么对你有用，但我正在努力扮演尽可能多的不同角色。是的，一样。- 我想尽可能多地运用想象力，但这很有趣。

And you, and this is the hardest part as you know, have to make yourself available to that and be a vessel for it.

我不一定再用这种方式工作了，但在我职业生涯的开始阶段，我确实通过创伤与我的角色建立了联系。我会在自己身上寻找我破碎的部分，以及角色内心破碎的部分，我会尝试通过这种方式找到我进入角色的方法。- 是的。

So I feel like I've been sort of coursed through these classified whitewater rapids for a few seasons and I love it.

所以我想，在一开始，我想我用它来表演一些我想更好地理解的事情。你说这都是为了我。

And it is heavy, the weight of it is heavy, just trying to, you know just trying to meet the demands of it and trying to embody what the character's struggle is, for me in this last season, there was a lot of imagining a golden light.

是的。我不需要。

And there's this sense of needing to, for Kendall, there's this sort of airborne quality to this last season of this almost manic need to stay above the pain.

你是否发现你已经固化了你想要坚持的表演形式？没有。- 还是像风的感觉一样，我经常有不同的表演方向？

- Yes.

我想我现在唯一的目标就是尽可能的自由。在这里，我不会审查自己并引用一些东西。

Which you know the whole work for me, I think as I see it is to earn the right to say those words.

但这是你的天赋之一啊，这就是我提起它的原因，因为它太精彩了，我都不记得今天是什么日子了。- 我去年读过一本关于爱德华·蒙克的很棒的绘画书。书上说，在这本绘画书中，它不能仅仅重建一个时刻，它本身必须是一个时刻。

- Come on, let's...- It's fucking lonely.

哦，说得好。它不应预先存在，而应在它被表达的那一刻形成。

- Hey.

这就是目的。- 我认为这就是目的。是的。

- I'm all apart.

所以在某种意义上，每次有人喊“开始拍摄”，我不喜欢他们喊“开始拍摄”。- 哦，我喜欢。- 我比较喜欢，当它刚开始拍的时候，你有点像是可以自己开始表演。但就像你说的那样，你盲目地遵循一种真理感，我认为严格地这样做，然后你会发现它是什么，它会向你揭示自己。

It is about the legacy of abuse.

但我从来没有规定一个表演形式，也不知道我要演到哪里。我想如果你准备得足够充分，内化得足够充分，那么你就……- 是的。- 你知道，知道。

I remember Jesse and Adam McKay the first thing they talked to me about was "Festen," the Vinterberg movie, which is in the substrate of the show, trauma and abuse.

我很高兴你提到了准备工作，因为当我们一起在拍《世界末日》时，你的角色是一个？水管工。- 水管工，你去学习如何修理冰箱和水管，你去学习，作为一名演员，这对我来说是比较羞愧的时刻，发现你比我有更多的孩子。

But also... Also what we work on, both of these things are about sort of late-stage capitalism.

前几天我在一个读书会上，我在想，那个人是《小猪佩奇》里猪爸爸的配音吗？哇，不好意思。- 是吗？

You know, we live in this time, where I think I read somewhere that the richest three Americans have more money than 160 million of the poorest fellow countrymen.

也许吧。- 也许？- 是的。关于肯德尔这个角色，有没有什么是你真正深入研究并把这个角色放在你的角度，或者让他对你来说活了起来？

And so these people that we are inhabiting exist in that rarefied world, and so the terrain is really similar actually.

因为我很惊讶你在我们的电影里对欧文有这么多了解。我只是我很好奇你对其他项目的准备程度，特别是《继承之战》。

I feel, you know, watching your work, to me this is sort of the perfect representation of what you can do, which is with great precision do like a triple reverse somersault from the high dive and then moments after, like a complete deep sea dive and touch the bottom.

我认为每一次你都是从无到有，对吗？我认为它告诉你如何去做，你可以跟着你的直觉走。

So for me, when you have that scene, which is amazing, you know, around the Oka golden chain, a golden chain, and you go into that Russian accent.

我觉得在我们的电影中有很多技巧和一些我发自内心地想理解的东西，还有声音，你知道吗？我一直想象着我会……

But then the moment in the stairway afterwards, it's an incredible moment.

我的主角都是反复无常的变色龙演员，我一直想象自己会成为一名性格演员，走过很远的距离去创造一个角色。史提夫·史密斯有首诗叫《并非飘摇而是沉溺》。

- I think that one of the main ways I'm different as an actor than the way I started was I have learned how to shake off a bad take.

这个想法是，它有点难以察觉该是哪一个定位。其实我觉得我们两个的角色都是这样。

My whole existence as an actor is not defined by a good take or a bad take anymore.

是的，我同意。这是我觉得她令人心酸的地方之一。

And I have gotten comfortable with, okay, that was terrible, let's see, let's learn something from it and try to find something else.

你会情不自禁地关心这个人。我是很关心。- 你给了她这样的关心和尊重，你非常清楚地知道你对她的共情，她是生活的学生。

- You know, personally the permission to suck, like the permission to...- To make a loud, wrong choice... - To sort of fail boldly and find that thin ice to be on is sort of the best thing you can give yourself as an actor.

但同时，我的意思是，我们工作的一部分是创造一个角色，他会说，“有进入角色钥匙吗？”就像你说的，“有钥匙吗？”

- I think so much of that precision that you're talking about has to do with the team that I was on and the way that I was able to make hyper-specific choices because of the excellence of everyone.

但这就是世界的一部分。- 对。在许多方面，我都感到非常非常幸运，因为我出生在一个完全不同于我努力进入的世界。

- Right. And it begins in a sad place, so everybody... But my very first job was on a TV show called "Get Real." And it was my senior year of high school, and I was away from home, I was shooting in Los Angeles and I was just dealing with a lot of feelings that I didn't...- How old were you?

一样。- 因为我觉得它让我对角色有了一个视角，看看我在哪里停下来，从哪里开始。我发现这对这个故事很有帮助，因为你在《继承之战》里的角色，我在《初创玩家》里的角色，他们以一种非常特定的方式排列，但你的角色是受某个人物的启发。

- I was 16 when it started and I turned 17 while we were doing it.

我在扮演一个实实在在真实存在的人。所以有一部分是我每天都要坐在那里检查，就像，你在扮演一个真实的人。

There were just a lot of feelings that I had that I didn't really understand.

对，她会看这个的。公正地演。- 是的。

And every morning I would get my makeup done, which felt very, very strange 'cause I was very young and it would kind of change the way my face looked, which felt very weird.

诚实地演。但是我读了一本书，因为我读了很多书。- 你读了丽贝卡读过的书。

And I would go into my little three banger with Eric Christian Olsen on one side and Jesse Eisenberg on the other side.

对吗？- 我读了丽贝卡读过的书，我也读了很多其他书。- 那种积极的态度。- 围绕着富裕家庭成长的感觉。对。- 你知道，就是那种你认为理所当然的东西，你不会看到的，因为它，我不知道，它无处不在，它是你游泳的水。

And I would have to like go to set and I feel really nervous and I would start to cry, but I would know that I couldn't cry my makeup off.

我做了很多研究，我和很多与我扮演的那位女士相处过很长时间的人交谈，我听到同样的话一遍又一遍，那就是，“她人太好了。”对我来说，这是扮演她很重要的一个方面。因为我一直在想，你知道吗？

So I would take a tissue and I would fold it in half and I would cry into the tissue.

你提到了蒙克的颜色运用（爱德华·蒙克，挪威画家），但我也是，我经常考虑负空间（艺术中的负空间是指图像主体周围和之间的空白空间）。我认为当你找到一个人的平衡，这一点非常重要，因为，我们都是在童话故事中长大的，我们有年幼的孩子，我们花了很多时间在童话故事中，但我们都知道现实要复杂得多，反派从来都不会那么好演。

I just remember thinking to myself, this would be great to see on camera.

通常我们都有喜欢他们的地方。我们也生活在一个有趣的时代，我们正在回顾，我们正在重新考虑我们对反派的看法，就这样。是的。- 而且，似乎最好的方法是共情。

And I have tried to get that moment into a film on several occasions and it never... And everybody always just kinda looked at me like I had three heads when I would suggest it.

因此，在我读过的一本书中，我偶然发现了这样一句话，上面写着：“公正地评判所有人。”这是指，不要忽视他们正在做的事情，这种方法没有废话。

And this is what I mean about the way I was invited into the process and I described it to Drew and Lee, and I don't know if they totally got what I was talking about, but they trusted me.

你看到某个人，也许他们进来了，他们在尖叫，他们的行为很荒谬。在那一刻，你可以说，“那个人怎么会这样？”

And so I said, "I would like to us to shoot it in such a way, please, where there's an outward facing part." Because these are of course glass walled offices, and it's an open floor plan, an open cubicle and all of those things where she has to have a public face and she turns around and she has to cry without crying off her makeup, which is something that I think a lot of women understand.

或者你可以说，“是什么让一个人那样做？”- 对。你可以提供一个很大方的理由，或者你可以走到那个人面前，问他们是否还好。

And I just had a feeling that it would look really strong on camera to watch the tears just kind of like saturate the tissue, but not fall.

我发现这是我扮演这个角色的唯一方法。这是一种新层次的富有同情心的好奇心。

- Good, I'm glad.

真好。关于是什么让一个人被他人认为很可爱，但另一个人却对他有不同的看法，这背后发生了什么？

- What do you mean?

你提到了创伤，我确实认为，你知道吗？如果说我们在这个世界上学到了什么，那就是每个人都随身背负一些东西。

- That you can access that, I think that's a gift.

是的。看看罗伊一家，我是说，金钱并不能保护一个人免受创伤。

- It's amazing that I'm a crybaby.

不能，没错，我是说，它既像戴着王冠的头一样沉重，但也有这样的观点，即拥有外在的、拥有权力的标志，在那种权力中成长并不意味着那种权力感能真正根植在你的内心，那是一种负担。- 是的。所以很容易给人贴上标签或做出评判。

And I've tried to put into the work on "Succession," and I think I try and put into everything now, which is something that Young said that only that which is really ourselves has the power to heal, and so maybe there's something about the fact that that moment came from, you know, the ground of your being, is why it is so deeply...- Oh, yeah.

我喜欢当演员的原因之一就是你可以绕过这些问题，你必须绕过这些问题，因为你唯一的工作就是有富有同情心的好奇心，试着共情地理解这个人的挣扎是什么，站在他们的角度思考是什么感觉。关于肯德尔和丽贝卡，我想到的一件事是她们都是理想主义者。

It's a funny thing because I remember when I was younger, an actor saying, "you can only ever really play yourself." And I thought, I don't know that I fully agree with that, I mean, whatever works for you, but I'm trying to play as many different characters as I can.

是的。我一直在想……我的意思是，我不想跳出我的圈子，给整个一代人贴上标签，但在那个时刻，理想主义和资本主义似乎紧密地交织在一起，人们真的相信你可以用金钱拯救世界，我们看到的证据表明这可能不是事实。

- Yeah, same.

所以我想知道你是否想谈谈肯德尔的理想主义，以及他为什么一直为它所羁绊？我认为在最后一季中，我有一种救世主的品质。

And I don't necessarily work this way anymore, but in the beginning part of my career I did connect to my characters through trauma.

那个孩子，我喝醉了，我神志不清，但我开车了。他看到了什么，他抓住方向盘，我们就开进水里了。

Like I would kind of search out parts in myself where I was broken and parts where they were broken and I would try to like, kind of find my way into them through that way.

然后我就把他留在里面跑了。在最后一集里，我们在这个肮脏的停车场。

So I think I was like, in the beginning, I think I was using it as kind of like an acting out of certain things that I wanted to understand better.

对我来说，这是我收到过的最优秀的剧本之一，所以，作为一名演员，这对你来说是多么沉重的负担，就在那时，一切都崩溃了。我 43 岁了，地狱就好像是一个人在中年时迷失在树林里，迷失了人生的正确方向。

You said it was all for me.

所以我认为，承认我已经迷失了方向，这是一件让你去面对、尝试思考的非常有力量的事情。在那场戏中我无法呼吸。

- And it is.

我不能，我只是，我完全被震慑住了，我知道一点点关于它的制作过程。我几乎完全搞砸了，真的。

- I don't need it.

我请制作设计师设计了这个底座，我有一个想法，我要坐在那里，只不过有想法从来都不是一件好事。我们确实喜欢……有时候，我们确实会拍九到十次。- 不，但我同意。

Do you find that you have shaped the performance that you try to adhere to?

有时候当我有想法的时候，我应该…… - 是的。这种想法会立即被发现是很不必要的多此一举。- 我尝试让我的想法实现，但我们之间的化学反应就是没有发生，经常有这样的场景，会发生什么就会发生什么，要么马上发生，要么根本不发生，我真的不相信你能去找到它。- 是的。

- No.

有那么一瞬间，我有点要放弃了，我想，“哦，我放弃了，我做不到。”- 你那部剧的团队都太棒了。- 是的，是的，确实，没错。对，这都有可能，因为其他演员…… - 因为他们就在那里，摄像机就在眼前。- 因为摄像师的机位变化无常。

- I think my only goal at this point is to be as free as possible.

我是说，这有点像，我想是你在《蕾切尔的婚礼》中的表演。是的。- 你们拍的都是 90 分钟左右的镜头，对吗？

Here I go, I'm gonna not censor myself and quote something.

听上去很极端了。是啊，是啊，这部剧我们一直都是这么拍的，但它如梦一般美妙。

- But this is one of your gifts, this is why I brought it up because it's amazing, I can't remember what day it is.

杰瑞米，我们已经没有时间在这个只有椅子的房间里说话了，你想去另一个有更多家具的房间吗？听起来不错。- 这太美好了。- 是的，我很高兴我们有了这次对话。

And they say, in this book painting, it must not merely reconstruct a moment, it must itself be a moment.

- Oh, good one.

- It must not exist beforehand but come into being in the moment it is expressed.

- That's the aim.

- [Anne] Yes.

- So in a sense, every time somebody calls action and I don't like it when they call action.

But you sort of blindly follow as you say, a sense of truth and really I think rigorously do that and then you discover what it is and it reveals itself to you.

But I don't ever prescribe a shape or know where I'm going.

I think if you prepare enough and have internalized enough, then you kinda just...- Yes.

- I'm so happy you brought up preparation because when we worked together on "Armageddon Time," your character was a?

- Plumber.

- I was at a reading the other day and I was like, is that guy the voice of Daddy Pig in "Peppa pig?" Wow, sorry.

- Maybe.

- So with Kendall, was there something that you really went deep on and nerded out that kind of put the character in perspective for you or made him come alive for you?

Because I was blown away that you had such an arsenal of knowledge about Irving in our movie.

And I just I was curious about your level of preparation in all your other projects, specifically, "Succession." - I think with each time you're sort of starting from nothing, right?

I think it tells you how to work on it and you sort of follow the line of your intuition.

I felt like there was a lot of skills and some stuff that I wanted to understand viscerally for our movie, also voice, you know?

I always imagined that I would be... My heroes are all sort of chameleonic actors, I always imagined I would be a character actor and sort of travel great distances to create a character.

There's a Stevie Smith poem called "Not Waving But Drowning." The idea is that it's sort of imperceptible which one it is.

And I think that that's true of both of our characters, actually.

- Yes, I agree.

- It's one of the things I find so poignant about her.

You can't help but care about this person.

- I do.

But also, I mean, part of our job is to create a character who can say, "does it have a key?" In the way that you said, "does it have a key?" - But that's part of a world.

- And I feel very, very lucky in many ways to have been born in a world that's different than the one that I've earned my way into.

- Same.

And I found that helpful in this story, because your character in "Succession" my character in "We Crashed," they line up in a very specific way, but yours is inspired by someone.

And I was playing someone very, very real.

And so there was a component to it where I had to sit there every single day and check in and just be like, you are playing a real person.

- Right, she's gonna watch this.

- Be fair.

- Be honest.

But there was a book that I read because I read a lot.

Right?

Right.

And I did a lot of research and I spoke to a lot of people that had spent a lot of time with the woman that I was playing and I heard the same thing again and again, which was, "she's so sweet." And that was for me, such an important aspect to playing her.

You mentioned in terms of Munch of color, but I was also, I think about negative space a lot.

And I think that it's so important when you find the balance of someone because, you know, we've all grown up on fairy tales, we have young children, we're spending a lot of time in them, but we all know that reality is so much more complicated and that villains are never convenient.

There's usually something we love about them.

- Yeah.

And so one of the books that I read, I came across this phrase, which said, "judge all persons favorably." And what that means is, don't not see the thing that they're doing, there's no BS to that approach.

You see someone, maybe they come in and they're like screaming their head off and they're acting in a ridiculous way.

And in that moment, you can either say, "how could that person act like that?" Or you could say, "what would make someone act like that?" - Right.

And you can either supply a generous reason or you can go up to the person and ask them if they're all right.

And I found that was the only approach I could take to playing this part.

It was a new level of compassionate curiosity.

- That's great.

- About what would make someone who is defined as sweet by one person, but who's also defined very differently by other people what's going on behind there?

And you mentioned trauma and I do think that, you know?

If there's one thing that we're learning in this world is that everybody's carrying around something.

- Yeah.

- And you know, and take a look at The Roys, I mean, money doesn't protect one from trauma.

- No, that's right, I mean, it is both sort of heavy as the head that wears the crown, but it's also this idea that having the external, having the trappings of power, being raised with that kind of power doesn't mean that that sense of power was installed in you internally in a real way and that's a kind of burden.

So it's very easy to sort of put labels on people or to make a judgment.

And one of the things I love about being an actor is you get to sort of slide around that, you have to slide around that because your only job is to have compassionate curiosity and try and empathically understand what this person's struggle is and what it's like to walk a mile in their shoes.

- One of the things that I was thinking about Kendall and Rebecca is they're both idealists.

- Yeah.

- And I've been thinking about... I mean, I don't wanna, you know step outside my lane and label an entire generation, but it seemed to be this moment when idealism and capitalism were so woven together, and there really was this very real belief that you could save the world with money, and we're seeing evidence that that might not be true.

And so I just wondering if you wanted to speak at all about the idealism of Kendall and why he keeps tripping over it?

- Well, I mean, I think certainly in this last season, there's this sort of messianic quality that I have.

That kid, I was drunk, I was fucked up, but I drove.

And he saw something and he snatched at the wheel and we went into the water.

And then I left him in there and ran.

We're in this dirty dirt parking lot in the final episode.

And to me that was sort of, a, it was one of the greatest pieces of writing I've ever been given and so that, you know, sort of how heavily that weighs on you as an actor, that's when it all sort of imploded.

And I'm 43 and the inferno is sort of about someone in the middle of their life lost in a wood, having lost the right way in life.

And so I think that reckoning of I've lost my way, was a very powerful thing to kind of work with and try and puzzle through.

- I couldn't breathe during that scene.

I could not, I was just, I was completely held and I know a little bit about what went into the making of it.

- I had sort of totally blown it, really.

I had asked the production designer to build this plinth, I had an idea that I would sit there and ideas are never a good thing.

And we did like... Sometimes, we did like nine or 10 takes.

Sometimes when I have ideas, I should just...- Yeah.

They're instantly revealed as an unnecessary detour.

There was a moment where I sort of just gave up, where I was like, "oh, I give up, I can't do this." - And you're such an amazing team on that show.

That's right, that's all possible because the other actors...- 'Cause they were there and the camera was so present.

I mean, it's sort of like, I think you worked on "Rachel Getting Married." - Yeah.

- Radical listening.

- Yeah, yeah, that's kind of the way we work on this show always, but it's a dream.

- Jeremy, we've run out of time to speak in this room in which we have the only chairs, would you like to go to another room where there's more furniture?

- That sounds great.

,